A little bit of everything…
I just wanted to say a few things in response to my assurance of salvation comments, and then some things I read that I thought were interesting this weekend.
First, to what Jesse said in his comment, I think some of his verses have good points, definitely, but some of them I would say, not so much, in my meager opinion. :) For example, Hebrews 6:4-6, 1 Tim 1:19, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21, 1 Timothy 4:1, Galatians 5:4, & Revelation 3:5.
From what I read in those verses and their context, I only see the authors speaking about/to people who have received “knowledge” of God, of faith, of truth, of Jesus. This doesn’t strike me as anything different than me receiving the knowledge that pluto is NOT a planet, and not accepting it. Okay, bad example. More like, hearing the knowledge that the earth is not the center of the universe and is round in shape, and not accepting that knowledge. It is also a very poor example, but there is a difference between hearing the facts, having intellectual knowledge of the facts, and believing and owning them, giving myself up to them in a way. I’m not sure I can think of an allegory that would begin to compare to that of faith in Jesus Christ, but we might liken it to simply knowing a person. I would say falling in love, but certain people out there think love is too irrational to base arguments on…mmkay.
So, I can know about, say, JAMES GOTTRY! :) Good example. I can hear about James from Lea (his fiancee). She told me about him, she told me about his characteristics, his likes, things he’s passionate about, experiences she had with him, and so I have knowledge of James. But I don’t know him. (for those of you who know spanish, I “sé” of James, but I don’t “conozco” James). Until I met him myself, I went and spoke with him, sat down and talked to him. Now I know him (we need better words in English). It’s not *just* knowledge anymore. I know that makes sense…I hope you get me. These verses mentioned above seem to only speak of this factual second-hand knowledge, and the Revelations 3 verse doesn’t hold any merit in my eyes (in this discussion), because he says “I will never blot his name from the book of life.” How does that say that Jesus will blot someone’s name out??
Take it from Whitney Houston. “I will always love you,” isn’t her way of saying, ”but I might not.”
Okay, to what James said, I’m not too familiar with the topic of apostasy, and I’m just trying to learn here and hear what people have to say, but I’m not sure about the apostasy theory. “The apostate is beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins.” Is anyone ever beyond salvation? There’s no hope? I guess if you get into theology, God choosing those He calls, I can understand that concept, but it seems like a dangerous ground to walk in our concepts. I’ve heard people tell me they have “written someone off,” probably in conjunction to the idea of apostasy, and that is not a place to be in my opinion (James, this isn’t directed at you by *any* means, just using your comment for further discussion and learning on my part). I would guess that most people would agree. Or if not, what do you think? Where have you heard the idea of apostasy inferred or drawn upon, directly or indirectly?
And finally, I just finished the book, “A New Kind of Christian,” by Brian McLaren.
Your response is either:
1. I have no idea who/what that book is like.
2. You think the man has some really interesting thoughts and want to discuss with me or someone else.
3. Your red flag just went up.
Regardless, there are certainly some interesting and valid points in this book, and it is very challenging, and perhaps something that leaders should be discussing, in my opinion. Anyway, one point that I wrote down on Friday was the following:
“The question is not just whether Christianity is rational, credible and essentially true, but whether it can be powerful, redemptive, authentic and good, and whether it can change lives, demonstrate reconciliation and community, serve as a catalyst for the Kingdom, and lead to a desirable future. That drama must be played out on the local level, in communities of people who live by the Gospel.” ~pg. 154
I have a lot more to comment on, but I think that might lead to information overload (or boredom), so I’ll try to contain myself.
Just to set this right.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 is not only talking about “knowledge” of the truth. The author speaks of those who have “shared in the Holy Spirit” (verse 4)
That does not sound like pure “head-knowledge” to me, but like, well let´s take it from the author, sharing in, becoming part of something. My german translation says “teilhaftig geworden” (which means, partaking, participating, sharing in, etc.)This is more practical and effective than just knowing about something, but not putting into practice.
1. Timothy 1: 18-20 talks about holding on to faith and a clear conscience. Paul is instructing Timothy to do so, and uses a negative example of what happens to people who fail to hold on. Paul himself “hands Hymanaeus over to Satan to not blaspheme anymore” (verse 20)Paul is talking about people “shipwrecking” their “faith”. They are destroying something that really existed. This isn´t just some people rejecting that Pluto is not a planet anymore. These are people who have failed to hold on to a preexisting “faith”, not just some knowledge about what is right.
Ok, so I´ll grant you Hebrews 10, 26-27. The author only speaks of receiving the “knowledge”. Yet it is interesting how the author goes on to say that those who “deliberately keep on sinning…will receive judgement…” It does not say, those who put the knowledge of truth into practice, or those who accept that knowledge as their own personal truth.
How would someone “escape the corruptions of the world” (2nd Peter 2, 20) just by knowing the truth without accepting it? If nothing had changed in that person´s life, and the person did not effectively put his knowledge of the truth into practice, how could that person become “entangled again”? And how could things become “worse” than they were in the beginning?
1 Timtohy 4, 1 again speaks of people leaving faith. I guess it depends on how you define that word, faith. If you wanted to, you could limit it to the sole knowledge of truth, without true acceptance of it.
Galatians 5, 4 makes it very clear to me. The author speaks of people “falling from grace” How could someone fall from grace, he had never yet received?
The author of Revelations says that those people “who overcome, will be dressed in white and their names will not be blotted out of the book of life…”. Just like Whitney is saying, I will never love anyone else, by saying (”I will always love you” my favorite shower-song by the way) the author of Revelations is saying: Those who do not overcome, will not be dressed in white, and their names will be blotted out. I realize that both Whitney and the author of Revelations do not necessairily have to be saying these things. But it would not make sense for Whitney in the next line to say: “I will love everyone else just as much as you” just as little as it would make sense for the author of Revelations to go on saying: I will not blot out anyone´s name.
Why say those things if they aren´t reduced to a single person (Kevin Costner in Whitney´s case) or to a group of people (Those who overcome in Revelation´s case)
It only makes sense to me to reverse the statements to get more information. “I will always love YOU! = I will never love anyone the way I love you.
“I will not blot out YOUR names = I will blot out their names”
But that is only my view of things, and i realize one does not have to read Revelations 3 that way.
So let me summarize: I don´t believe those verses are talking about the pure knowledge, knowledge that was not accepted and not put into practice.
I believe those verses show that “assurance of eternal salvation” is not a clear and indisputable dogmatic.
Enough for now.
Jesse.
okay, well, we’ve discussed, but i just wanted to comment a little more. You have great points and thoughts, as usual, so I’ll just throw some more out there. Again, though, I think the Bible is full of things God wants us to wrestle through, and so I like doing stuff like this when it comes from the motivation of trying to understand God more. It’s incredibly interesting and challenging.
I’m reading these verses from a perspective of believing and trusting that God is a faithful God. And that He loves. Fully. And Completely. And that He promises things, and doesn’t go back on them. And if I’m trusting Him, it doesn’t fit that He would dishonor his promise.
But I think the key is that God lives outside of time, and so the question is not, “Did you pray the prayer when you were 5?” but “What are you trusting in RIGHT NOW?” Who are you trusting in to redeem what’s obviously not quite right with ourselves and life. What does the Gospel really mean? Seriously! We’ve lost it somewhere…it’s gotten lost in religious terminology, the hustle, 9-5, bills bills bills, conquering the world, being right…what does it mean? Have we “gotten ourselves saved?” Or have we been touched somehow by Logos?
So, if there exists a Logos, what is his deal? What does He want? How does he relate to us? How do we know him? And what do we do about it? Is He trying to tell us something? And what is it? Are we paying attention? Is it important?
These are things everyone has to figure out for themselves. People screw things up. We’re not horrible, worthless worms squirming around. But I think we’re obviously pretty valuable, and humanity has done some pretty dang amazing things. There are so many beautiful, unfathomable things in life. And in people.
We have logic, reason, philosophy, consciousness, love, friendship, the ability to create, explore, invent and discover. I would gather that we’re not worthless and pointless.
But, yeah, there’s crap also. What does that mean? Does it matter?
What’s my point? Well, just think about it for awhile. Start over with what you can see as truth, or lies, and go from there. Has Logos revealed truth about Himself? Well, where is truth? What is it?
Is there any truth?
I just saw the stuff about apostasy… honestly, I don’t know exactly what the deal is with that. I’m with you, as far as, I don’t think anyone is every permanently beyond salvation - i guess the way I read that commentary was more of a “AS LONG AS this is the attitude, as long as you are rejecting Christ - there is no salvation.” I don’t know if that is right, but it’s like how the Hebrews passage says if someone fell away, etc,etc, it would be impossible to renew them to repentance since it would require crucifying Christ again. And I think that passage is making a point that - look, you can’t lose your salvation, because then there would be no way to get saved again, and God can save anyone.
Ok - did that ramble make any sense? I’m trying to type really fast cause I have to leave!
Hey James! I just heard Pat Robertson from the 700 Club gives his opinion on Apostasy, and he wasn’t all too clear on it anyway (imagine that). Sometimes, when that’s on tv late at night, I just can’t help but watch it.
Anyway, I like what you said here: “And I think that passage is making a point that - look, you can’t lose your salvation, because then there would be no way to get saved again, and God can save anyone.”
I’ve heard people say things about “writing somebody off” or something similar as if they are beyond hope or something like that, which to me is completely the opposite of what the Gospel is all about, and Jesus’ lifestyle and teachings, and it seems prideful to me. As if we have done something to earn God’s grace. I heard someone say recently, it’s almost as if we’re saying, “I had the good sense to choose Jesus,” to other people instead of realizing that God gracefully has reached out to us and it has nothing to do with us, period.
Now I’m rambling.
Hey sister, I personally agree with you that it is not the heart of God for us to just “write off” someone. I think we always need to leave the door open for a repentant heart, because God does. So should we. Someone may be having a tough time either with grief, anger, sin/pride or something else, and their hearts may be hardened for a time, but may work out their frustrations towards God and come back with a humble heart. We should openly embrace them as the father with the rebellious son.
I do believe, though, that God has told us there are times we need to ‘move on’, if at least for a time. I can think of two specific causes right now:
- Someone hears the message of God’s plan for salvation, but consistently and forcefully denies it. (Mark 6:11-12)
- Someone professes to believe the message of God’s plan for salvation, but consistently and unrepentantly chooses to not live a life that honors God. (Matthew 18:15-18, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, an example: 1 Timothy 1:18-20)
In both those cases, God gives examples of how we are called to ‘move on’, to more fruitful relationships. Granted, there is no set time-period layed out, but there are models and principles to guide us and help us discern. I don’t believe it takes the same shape as corporate capitalism, but it seems that Jesus taught many messages about us taking into consideration the ROI of our ministries. (That’s humbling as I write it, cause I know how to waste time with the best of them.) Of course, the concept of ROI needs to be balanced out with the example of the good shepherd taking the time and energy to pursue the one lost sheep. That’s why I say it’s not as simple as New York Stock Exchange economics. God cares for the individual as well as the whole. But I do see from Scripture that there are times when God tells us as humans to let other people be, and move on. To me, that emphasizes the role and work of the Holy Spirit, rather than humans. The Holy Spirit is the one who counsels and ultimately brings new life to a person. Not me. I could spend every day for the rest of my life focusing all my energy trying to talk to someone about the amazing, free grace that God gives because of His own personal sacrifice on the cross, but if the Holy Spirit isn’t prodding their heart, and they will not choose to let go of their personal pride of being their own ‘god’, they won’t get it. I don’t think God would say I completely wasted my time, but according to the Scriptures in the two bullets above and others, I probably would have missed other opportunities because I wasn’t going where the Holy Spirit was working. As I get older, I get the feeling from Scripture that, as far as our role as humans go, it’s a little more important we get the message out, rather than seeing certain people we know come to believe that message.
Anyway, I do agree that we should never completely close the door on anyone, but I do see Jesus modeling out that there are times when we may need to ‘move on’ from personal relationships with specific people, and trust them entirely into God’s hands, so that we may go to where is Spirit is working. But always, always, leave the door open for a changed heart.